All of those are on the way (I hope) - a lot of them next year (with a following wind)….👍

I think we have to give the camera makers credit; they continue to innovate and put out their best work even in the face of a shrinking market.

We are spoiled by an abundance of riches. There is so much quality gear from all companies that you cannot go wrong. Anyone who wants any type of camera and lens to do just about anything can get it and there are offerings for just about any budget.

And that's before factoring in the used market, where great values abound. DSLRs from years ago still offer incredible image making capabilities and can be had for very little.

You are only limited by your own capabilities and you can always expand that through practice and study.

What we have now is a technological consolidation with most camera makers reaching a ceiling.
Nowadays, even average cameras have autofocus capabilities that mirrorless cameras of yesteryear could only dream of. Most new camera models have much improved video capabilities (i.e. 10 bit and 4k), excellent low-light performance etc.

Currently, there are no disruptive technologies on the horizon, except possibly a much higher level of automatic in-camera-processing, using more powerful microprocessors to accelerate AI and conventionally driven processing such as image stacking, super--resolution, auto HDR, night mode etc - all these things that smartphone cameras have been offering for quite a few years now.

The big limit these days is folks really understand what they might be shooting and basically nobody else. Out of camera IQ has basically been at a Standstill for almost a decade.

What hasn't been answered from my so far limited research, what was the biggest tradeoffs with camera sensor switching change, CCD vs CMOS. I have seen some older cameras with remarkeably clean, Out of Camera images with Old CCD sensor while I see plenty of brand New CMOS out cameras images that beg the questions about just how far Out of Camera quality has actually come.

The destructive/disruptive tech is here already, and it’s been killing camera sales for over a decade. If manufacturers won’t migrate computational photography into cams, then that market is done.

I agree that he disruption is and has been the smartphone. But I don't think computational photography is all that a smartphone offers to its users.

What enabled smartphones to take over the world of photography is their ability to instantly share a photo after taking it. Also their ease of use and carry, and also the ability to use all sorts of creative apps for editing.

Computational photography enables smartphones to better compete in the IQ department, and mostly to try to match what traditional cameras already offer. For instance there's the bokeh effect that smartphones create; traditional cameras have had that for a long time.

Where smartphones pull clearly ahead is the sharing, easy of use, the fact that you have a smartphone with you always, and the fun editing apps.

I have tried the Zf. Its AF performance doesn't lag behind anything. And yes I include Sony in that assessment.

@Snoddas: none. Leica never made any comparable APS-C lenses.

I have both Viltrox lenses and they live on my Fujis. Brilliant value.

Having a lens start at ultra-wide but go past normal to mild telephoto is amazing for walk-around and indoor use, usually if you want wider than 24mm (and 20mm is a lot wider than 24mm) you get only "wide" at the long end so need another lens for a lot of shots... It's compelling IMHO, I'd certainly choose it over all the 24-xx lenses (of which I have a couple).

It's way more than just a retro. Way more

@ "Kandid"
"I mean the 20-70f4 does nothing for me."
An honest statement, summing up your POV.

"Would anybody junk ... a 24-70 f2.8 ... for this?"
I could not agree more!
Why "junk" a lens that still has significant value on the market for used gear? Why ignore a nice three digit Euro bid in the local brick-and-mortar store when asking how much a 15 year old CZ 24-70/2.8 SSM I would yield in case of trading it in for the 20-70/4? "Junk" it - definitely not.

Why? Everybody loves free firmware updates. Right?

Can we just hate Nikon USA but really like the products, or is that too complicated?

What's this "Nikon" word you speak of?

@madeinlisboa: I think that's a misconception. I've been visiting dpreview since I switched to digital in 2005. During that period virtually all the (pathetic) faanboy hate has being between Canon and Sony users. I think it's also true to say that in general, Canon users have a lot of respect for Nikon, and vice versa.

There are more important things than IBIS, especially most of the low bidget Canon RF lenses have IS. I take image quality, video features (4K60 oversampled), top AF over IBIS anytime.

IS/VR is perfectly fine 98% of the time.

Lens-based stabilisation cannot compensate for roll shake (rotation of the camera about the lens axis).

That’s no big deal for stills at normal shutter speeds, but for handheld video you need IBIS or the corners of the frame will always be shaky. And this shake does not depend on focal length, so it’s always there.

For example, here’s some footage that someone shot handheld with a stabilised lens but no IBIS:

https://youtu.be/poHvD_uAH_E?t=60

At 60 seconds there’s a railing across the frame. The rail looks solid in the centre because of the lens IS. On the edge, e.g. the left edge of the frame, the same rail is bouncing all over the place because there is no roll stabilisation.

And there are many lenses with no IS even within Canon’s stable.

The Blair Witch Project film crew didn't use IBIS either.... ;-)

IBIS lol just hold the camera steady

You can't just "hold the camera steady" for video. It's not that simple.

I have an R6 and was looking fir a backup body for travel. The reason I didn't buy an R8 was because of its lack of IBIS. None of my compact RF lenses have IS (16mm f2.8, 28mm f2.8, 50mm f1.8). So, I purchased a Sony A7c.

The "Plena" was lost in translation...

Last year launch….👍

It never hurts to do a check before posting a comment.

A quick google search or, maybe, just read the text under the product that explicitly says that it is 4mm wider than the norm.

Which was not a typo.

We don’t know that yet. Canon might finally show up with the R1. Or even better, the R0.

2024 = Olympics = R1 and perhaps even a Z9h with global shutter.

I think Canon will release the R1, and it may have a high resolution stacked sensor but no global shutter. Some Sony promoters (SFB's) will criticize it for not having a global shutter, in spite of having advantages in everything else, including resolution, DR, video, etc.

Then when Sony drops the A1 Mark II with also a high resolution stacked sensor but no global shutter, then that will be OK with them.

Sony announced the A9 III early for a reason. It may have been to try to get ahead of the R1.

@Thoughts R Us

These 2 sentences by you contradict each other -

"The camera has yet to be tested by any independent third party in any meaningful way."

"We do know there are compromises in DR and high ISO."

It is extremely likely that the a9III, however how great it will be, will be facing very tough competition in 2024. It's anybody's guess who comes out on top.

I also expect an a1II, Z9II and/or Z1/Z9h and perhaps even an R1.

All things considered I think that the a1II or Z9II are most likely to get the palm.

“Then there's the fact that global shutter, while impressive, has limited impact versus fast stacked sensor cameras. The stacked sensor solved most of the problems that global shutter solves, but again, without the tradeoffs in DR.”

You’re setting yourself up again…. Let’s see what you say when Canon or Nikon release their global shutter cameras in a few years….

RubberDials:
"We do know there are compromises in DR and high ISO"

Even without testing, we know that the base ISO of the camera, as reported by Sony, in both stills and video is higher than other cameras offered by Sony and the competition. With a base ISO of 250 in stills and 2000 in SLOG3, what are we to make of that? They also have reported a lower max high ISO number.

Also, Sony has allowed testing of the camera only in very well lit conditions, what some reviewers said were almost overly lit conditions. And they have not allowed any video samples yet, and have not even put out their own.

We have very vague assurances from Sony about no compromises, but they haven't shown any work to prove this. Now it may turn out that the compromises are minor and most won't notice, but that base ISO number does mean something.

Canon's had a Global Shutter sensor for ages, but just for the C700 Cinema camera, and more recently two full-frame industrial cameras. Will they put one of their descendants in the R1? I don't know but it will be interesting...
https://asia.canon/en/consumer/new-cmos-sensors-capture-warp-free-19-mp-images-high-speed-subjects/news
"Canon’s new 35mm full-frame CMOS sensors feature global shutters..."

@Thoughts R Is

You've already posted more than a 100 times that the A9III is 'niche', 'nothing new', 'unproven', 'diminishing returns ', 'not needed' and 'not a game changer'. You've urged people 'not to get carried away' and said, rather ridiculously that 'the advantages may not matter'. You've accused Sony of 'dishonesty' and stated over and over again that the camera is 'compromised in DR' by which you mean not that the DR is compromised but that it doesn't have the same base ISO as non global sensors as if they were some how the same thing.

Now you're ludicrously claiming that Sony 'overlit the venue', and controlled the conditions under which people got to use the camera when there are videos all across the net showing people using the camera inside and out and review copies are already out. Honestly the only mystery is how you still have an account here, you've clearly got an agenda to attack Sony and the camera.

There are a number of sports pros already using the A9III and 300GM for work…. Still may be preproduction cameras and no doubt feeding back to engineers. But they are producing with the gear and delivering images.

RubberDials: are you really arguing that there is no correlation between base ISO and DR? Because that would be a novel argument. Generally speaking the lower the base ISO of the sensor the more DR. Many reviewers have noted that.

Also some reviewers at the Sony event did comment that the lighting was very bright, almost overlit. Others just viewing the photos have said the same thing. And yes, the photos we've seen from the camera are generally from the Sony event. Perhaps a few Sony ambassadors have been able to use it in other situations, but even then...Mark Galer for instance posted some photos of windsurfers in very bright sunny conditions.

We also have yet to see any video samples, not even from Sony. So I would say that Sony has been extremely controlling in how they allow this camera so far to be previewed.

Mike: if you know of any sports pro's using the A9III and delivering images for the media, could you please share those links. Thanks.

I didn’t say they were sharing. They are delivering.
The pros aren’t posting in blogs. Or in semi-public Facebook groups with 20,000 members. They are submitting to their wire services.

There are a few private groups where these images are being shared among other pros…. You’re scouring the internet for stuff all day long. I’m sure you can find some.

I know a few of them personally. I’m not sharing their names. Sorry…

Mike, to me "delivering" and "submitting to their wire services" means that they are making the images publicly available. I don't see how anyone could interpret that differently. If they are publicly available then that means then that means it's OK to share the links to those images or at least mention the public outlets using them.

I don't care about the private groups and don't expect you to break any confidences.

Both Canon and Nikon will definitely come up with something for Olympics. I wouldn't be so sure yet. That being said, with GS sensor's reduced dynamic range i have no interest in it. Not until we get into 2nd or 3rd generation sensors where things get better and that's another 5 or 7 years away. I will never touch first generation products unless it's dirt cheap or heavily discounted.

We don't have to wait for lab tests to confirm the reduced DR. The iso range speaks for itself. Canon R5 is 100 to 40,000, Nikon Z8 is 64 to 25600, but A9iii is 250 to 25600. You do the math there, that's approximately a loss of 1.5 or 1.7 stops or so of DR. The problem isn't the base ISO of 250. The problem is the range. I do not want to be reminded of the likes of Canon 6D mark ii again.

@Thoughts R Us

Although one of your favourite sayings is 'specs don't matter' you always play the specs of one Sony model off against the other. So when you talk about the A7rV you don't mention that it has the best DR on the market, you focus on how slow the camera is in ES and FPS. Now with the fastest camera on the market you're banging on about low ISO DR when sports shooters don't ever shoot at 100ISO.

The non stacked sensor in the Canon R6II is almost a stop worse than the A9II at ISO 250 in ES mode. The R3 with baked in noise reduction is about the same as the A9II. Even the best DR at 24MP on the market (Sony A7III) is only about two thirds of a stop better. I would say that the DR in the A9III would have to be approaching R6II levels to be a problem and I don't think that's likely.

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%20R3(ES),Canon%20EOS%20R6(ES),Sony%20ILCE-9M2

@Thoughts R US

As for your comments about Sony's mind control over journalists you watch all the videos as part of your job so you well know that people took the cameras out of the venues and shot under all lighting conditions including at night.

I don't watch as many Sony videos as you but I saw that Tony Northrup has a review copy and has been experimenting with customising the speed boost button. If he has a review copy then other journalists do as well.

The A9 III + the new 300mm/2.8 will be game changer, what a dream combo for sports shooters. A 300/2,8 at 3 pounds is totally crazy!
Global shutter will also mean even better AF as the AI gets more data to work with faster. This might even get me over to the other side...

sorry, RD, nothing you said clears up any doubts about the DR of the A9 III. Sony has done nothing to clear anything up either, as they could just as easily show us results rather than the words of the product executive assuring us there are "no compromises."

And please, Sony has yet to allow any third party to do unrestricted independent testing.

I've said many times over that I don't think that the DR loss would make any real world difference, but let's not pretend it's not there.

Also notice Sony has yet to release any video samples, much less allow for any third party independent video samples. That's got to be the first time I've seen Sony do this.

Even if global shutter has a DR penalty, it’s clear the industry is lagging behind Sony at this point. This feels like Canon clinging to DSLRs when the first mirrorless showed up.

Now of course, Canon has the chance of showing up with a rival flagship camera. But since the R5, they’ve been MIA. Nikon completely took them out of the picture with their Z9, while the R3 is a flop.

Flop? It took Nikon 2 years to catch up with the AF in the R3...The question is if Nikon ever will catch up with Sony AF...

I see the R3 in use at all sorts of pro sports contests. Unless you have sales figures then you can't call the R3 a "flop."

Global shutter will not even be implemented across the entire Sony product line, and for now remains a more niche tool. A1 wildlife/bird shooters are unimpressed and not biting for the A9 III because they need the higher resolution and don't need global shutter. The next A1 will likely have a stacked sensor as Sony isn't ready yet to make a high resolution global sensor. If they did what would be the base ISO? 1000?

As for the A9 III, all we have is test shots allowed by Sony, in well lit conditions. Most YouTuber videos are just talking head videos where they talk about the camera without actually using it beyond the Sony event. A Sony ambassador was allowed to make photos in bright sunlight!

We have no video samples, not even from Sony themselves where they could control everything.

I obviously don’t have the sales figures to back this up… but I haven’t seen a single R3 used anywhere, while the A1s and Z9s are everywhere. Mpixels talk here, and yes- if you want to shoot low res the other cams can do it as well.

Yes the A9iii does not feel fully baked yet, but it’s more baked than the mythological R1. No one even smelled a whiff of proof it is even a product, and yet the fanbase is eagerly proclaiming that unicorn is the bees knees.

It’s ok to admit Canon made a mistake. Twice. I’m sure they’ll recover, the R5 is a good example that they have the talent.. they just have a crappy team drafting their product roadmap.

@J0n Sn0w: The R3 is usually very hard to spot behind the forest of white lenses... Last time Nikon was the largest player in sports photography was probably back in the manual focus days and then Canon released their first camera with AF in 1985...

"I obviously don’t have the sales figures to back this up… but I haven’t seen a single R3 used anywhere, while the A1s and Z9s are everywhere. " Great reasoning :). Watch NFL and F1 (when F1 returns next year).

"Mpixels talk here, and yes- if you want to shoot low res the other cams can do it as well." One reason why the A9 III is not the holy grail of photography. Many Sony people said 24MP was too low resolution until the A9 III and now miraculously it's the "sweet spot."

"Yes the A9iii does not feel fully baked yet, but it’s more baked than the mythological R1. No one even smelled a whiff of proof it is even a product, and yet the fanbase is eagerly proclaiming that unicorn is the bees knees."

Straw man. I don't see too many Canon users talking about an R1. Sure the rumor is out there but so far the talk is very muted. In fact the best indicator of the R1 coming soon may be that Sony announced the A9III so early.

Wait, you're saying Sony announced the A9III, scheduled a massive event in NYC, brought a bunch of pre-preproduction models so anyone who wanted to go (even you) could go and use the camera.. And Sony did all of this because they thought Canon would be announcing the R1 soon???

Your BS gets wilder and wilder with every post.
I thought you were one of the many people that said companies like Canon don't respond to competitors like Sony releasing cameras like the A1 and don't rename cameras intended to be called the R1 to the R3.. Remember that???

Mike, there's a big difference between rescheduling an announcement of a camera already planned and almost finished, vs actually changing development and production of a camera and/or even changing its name, which does require changes in production, packaging, and documentation.

To move up an announcement is a matter for scheduling planners and marketing...it's not that difficult for a big company like Sony. But to change development and production of products...well, that's a big task.

And it was unusual for Sony to announce a camera and then have such a large gap to shipping date. And even though the announcement occurred over a month ago, we still do not have any RAW file samples, nor any video samples. That too is unusual for Sony.

Now it may not be due to an upcoming announcement from Canon, but Sony is very into marketing so who knows?

Great example of ”doublethink” (ref: ‘1984’ - George Orwell).
24MP in the R3 - not enough cf A1 and Z9 - ‘dead’ ‘failure’ ‘hopeless’
24MP in the A93 - game changing sweet spotster…
Ridiculous❗️Truth is 24MP is spot on for pro sports and they use the R3 in droves. The A93 is enough also and if it tests well they will snap it up.
24MP not enough these days for many others who will prefer the c. 50MP options

“To move up an announcement is a matter for scheduling planners and marketing...it's not that difficult for a big company like Sony. But to change development and production of products...well, that's a big task.”

That’s BS…. Well maybe not for canon or Nikon announcements when there’s no gear around for the public to try, but this Sony announcement was complete with a bunch of hardware for people to try. So while yeah, moving the announcement isn’t that big of a deal, but this announcement included a full complement of hardware, in users hands. And if you have had any involvement with product development (you haven’t, I know) then you would know this is altogether different.

Anyway you can believe Sony responded to some fear of some rumor of canon announcing an R1 and you can also believe canon didn’t rename the 24MP/30FPS R1 to R3 one month after the 50MP/30FPS A1 announcement out of fear of utter disappointment by canon users.

More mindless doublethink……
The R3 is exactly what Canon expected it to be - a dedicated sports camera. To suggest they swerved their entire marketing effort in response to the launch of a different type of camera (they probably already knew all about) within a couple of weeks is wishful thinking. Sony on the other hand can bring forward the launch date of their puny megapixeled effort with little disturbance….👍

Mike, I’m glad you keep bringing up those cameras that Sony showed off at the event. They clearly were not production models. No RAW files allowed. No video samples. Even Sony has yet to post a video sample from the A9 III on their website. Why? Could it be because the camera is not quite ready and that Sony moved up the launch event? Because that is what it would look like.

You also do not explain why the large gap between announcement and shipping date? Again I’m not saying it’s due to Canon but that at least is one explanation.

TRU…. They actually had hardware to show the public.

No doubt the firmware was still a work in progress..

But you don’t just pull in a product announcement with hardware because some rumor site has been predicting the announcement of the R1 for 2.5 years and you suddenly believe them now. Haha.

Estimates the difference between announcement and shipping are 4-5 months. How do you explain canon and Nikons difference between announcement and shipment of 9 months (R1 I mean R3 and Z9) as not in response to Sony’s A1 announcement.

Double standards abound….

Yeah. Just like Canon does.. That's why it only took them 4 years to come up with a camera similar to Sony's 24MP Stacked sensor. And lets see how long it takes Canon to release their global shutter sensor stills camera which has been rumored now for 2 years. For sure they've been accelerating it knowing that Sony was coming with a global shutter A9III.

No one is stating the firmware is finished. Duh…

You’re always the one with all the answers. So how about you spell out in simple terms exactly why Sony decided to preannounce the camera with an in person event with actual hardware on hand…

Let’s hear it…

Oh the “youtube army” you always like to put down had plenty of time with the camera at the NYC event, a far cry from the paper preannouncements of Canon and Nikon that you seem so eager to compare this to.

Anyway. Let’s hear your clear concise explanation…..

Kandid I agree…. Like the stacked sensor, I think it’s gonna change photography again. But at the moment it’s of real benefit to a select category of shooters. It’s a big deal for some sports shooters (although I argue the A1 is still better for most sports shooters). It’s also a big deal for live performance shooters who have to deal with LED lights. It will also be interesting to see how the portrait guys use the unlimited flash sync capability.

Anyway it’s only two months away if we are to believe BH’s estimated ship date…

I just think it’s hilarious to read TRU’s dismissive tone when his two brands of choice, previously Canon and now Nikon announce 9 months ahead with no hardware, and now he’s putting down Sony because the hardware was available but not finalized. LOL.

In fairness to TRU I think he’s just ruminating about a seeming change in marketing behaviour by Sony - fun to speculate, but as I say not massive…

@Thoughts R Us

"And please, Sony has yet to allow any third party to do unrestricted independent testing."

From the guy who said 'words matter'. You're ridiculous. Sony let people take the cameras out of the venue but you have to lie and pretend that they were somehow supervised. Do you understand what the word 'independent' means? Perhaps you're claiming DPR's copy was written by Sony?

"Also notice Sony has yet to release any video samples, much less allow for any third party independent video samples.

What, like this 4K video from Chris and Jordan shot at 24p, 60p, 120p, in S-log3, S-Cinetone and at least two other picture profiles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNGLhTDYpYM
There's video from the A9III all over the web - as you well know.

CONTD.

"Mike, you still haven't come up with any explanation for why Sony all of a sudden changed their method of operating and announced a camera so far in advance of their shipping."

You've been told countless times why - to coincide with the 10th anniversary of the A7 launch. Even if there was no anniversary, it still wouldn't make sense to sit on a development this innovative. Sony made available hundreds of bodies at venues all over the world. The camera's in production, it's only the firmware that's not final.

"Again I’m not saying it’s due to Canon but that at least is one explanation."

Even by your standards that's weak. If Sony had announced the camera with nothing but a body in a glass box you could argue that they were trying to usurp someone else's launch, but the rival launch would then have to follow directly after. Sony had actual cameras in people's hands - where's the Canon product they supposedly beat to the punch?

“This seems suspect.”
Everything you write is suspect. LOL

@Thoughts R Us

"I will gladly accept proof and admit that I was wrong."

Everything I post in reply to you proves you wrong but you just ignore what I write and say it again. That's what you do here.

For example:

"no videographers have been able to make a video on their own terms, using SLOG3 and grading it."

I gave you a link to a video shot by Jordan away from the venue that he edited and graded in S-log3. 18:22 text on screen; 'Shot on the Sony A9III, 4K/24p Graded S-Log 3'.

Earlier I told you Tony N had a review copy and now you write 'the camera has been on lockdown' and try to curate the fiction that Sony heavily controlled how people used the cameras when they did nothing of the kind.

Sony mentioned the 10th Anniversary of the A7 at the start of the presentation. You have it from the horses mouth. Arguing that it's not an anniversary event if it's not on the exact day is just... I don't know - crazy. It was within two and half weeks of the date the A7 launched.

CONTD.

You claim to not know that there have been launch events all over the world and yet you sat through a half hour video from Three Men and an Elephant of the guy just talking. You consume everything about Sony - far more than Me or Mike. You frequently quote from the comment section of Sony Rumours - an ad farm that most Sony uses steer well clear of. You consume every piece of information you can find about new Sony products so you can troll them.

Here's a video from the Turkey event. (That's a Southern European country off the Black Sea) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G9l8NBPyHw&t=248s
Here's another one from Turkey
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGMsYsYGV88
Here's a video from Canada https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dT4HfjNoPk - which also has lots of video samples at various frame rates. The 4K from the camera is excellent BTW.

You talk about numbers. You always want to know the numbers. The number that should be really important *to you*, and you seem deathly afraid of, is how many years before canon and Nikon have a flagship level camera (even if you don’t want to call it a flagship) with a full frame global shutter sensor.

You seem very threatened based on the overall tone of your comments and bringing up these mostly meaningless figures for your “bar room banter”. Good day…

@Thoughts R Us

I don't reply to your posts for your benefit but for anyone else reading your posts. You're a serial liar and you don't post in good faith. For example directly after replying to me you made the following post in a new thread;

"as mentioned no one has access to the RAW files, SLOG3 video files, no one has been able to fully test on their own outside of the Sony event or with a Sony rep present."

In other words, directly after you made it clear that you had seen Jordan's video and saw that it was shot and graded in S-log3 you went and wrote that 'no-one has access to SLOG3 video files'. You're just a liar. You tell lie after to lie to trash Sony.

Same with the comment about the Sony rep. The Sony rep was with Mark Bennett in Canada because he was shooting in a park and as you pointed out it was their only body. Chris and Jordan didn't have a rep with them in NY, nor Taylor Jackson, nor Manny nor Tony and Chelsea nor any one else.

Contd.

You also didn't understand what we said. Here's the full quote; "There is only one A9III in all of the country of Canada right now - that is true they actually overnighted the camera from New York City up here to Toronto just for yours truly and also there was a large, uh camera convention - The Profusion Expo here in Toronto but mostly I think it was for me." Spoken over the backdrop of three models posing in front of a Sony Alpha backdrop and under '#1 Mirrorless Camera Brand'. The body wasn't actually sent for him it was sent for the Sony Alpha stand at the Expo and he was humourously suggesting it had just been sent for him.

Here's another two videos from the Turkey launch event.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqPjikTCZYI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sg4PnpgmIk
The Chris Frost one has a shot of the table with at least 34 A9III bodies on it. (8:20) Presumably the NY event had many more. You've ignored the fact that Tony Northrup says he has a review body.

Contd.

The camera is coming off the production line. Sony will fill their agency clients orders first and then the rest of us will get it - if we've got the money.

RDs claims which you are now ignoring stand by themselves. They don’t need defense from me. He’s provided links which you have ignored, to videos you say don’t exist…. He doesn’t need me to defend him. He’s done a fine job all by himself.

@MikeRan

"The number that should be really important *to you*, and you seem deathly afraid of, is how many years before canon and Nikon have a flagship level camera (even if you don’t want to call it a flagship) with a full frame global shutter sensor."

It's 3 years since the A1 launched, so it's pretty obvious that the R1 that Canon were rumoured to be working on back in 2020, with a Q3 2021 launch was the R3.

Would the A1 have forced Canon to develop a ≈50MP stacked sensor? They like to go their own way, and they've only just developed a relatively fast non-stacked high MP sensor for the R5. I think there's a possibility that the R1 will not be a high megapixel camera but stay at 24MP.

The question is will it use the R3 body? And if its specs somehow seem underwhelming re the A9III, what are Canon going to downgrade the name to this time? Would they dare call it the R3mkII?

@Thoughts R Us

Here's what you said about the R5 launch where Canon were limiting the reproduction of full size jpegs (Jpegs!) just two weeks before shipping production bodies:

THOUGHTS R US:
"Sorry guys but with the vast majority of all devices that hit the market, it is very common that reviews are not published until the unit actually ships or at least just before it does.

Look at the iPhone launches; every review hits at best a few days before launch day, even though the product was announced earlier. When the product is announced all the press can do is go to a room and play around with one very briefly.

Look at the camera reviews as well...in almost all cases they come out once the product actually ships. This is all standard stuff and you should know that.

Contd.

"How many times do we see someone get their hands on an upcoming camera, and say that the card door is secured shut, or at least that they can't put a card in and take test pics...due to it being preproduction. In many cases you would see these at trade shows before launch, and you always heard that.

So no, this is not some deep dark conspiracy.."

https://www.dpreview.com/news/9728111189/canon-japan-warns-r5-r6-and-accessories-could-ship-later-than-expected-due-to-demand?comment=4516747017

Seems you have a double standard. 😆

“I readily admit that I do not know”

Stating the obvious…
This really applies to all of your posts in recent months…

“I’m trying to be better”. No. You’re not…

LOL. Attack the messenger...

To summarize: my only point when someone mentioned that the A9III was this guaranteed game changer, was to say in essence, not so fast, we don't know yet, the camera is not yet ready for prime time, as in release and testing.

Also in the conversation I've noted that Sony changed THEIR behavior for launching a new product, with such a gap between announce and ship.

None of this should be controversial. But some Sony promoters get very defensive when anyone even dares question their brand.

You blasphemer you……😝

It’s time to own the BS. /mic

@Snoddas
Fuji's medium-format tilt&shift lens is even more niche, but has made it to the list anyway.

Canon is years behind. The only prize the R1 can win is product of the year 2020.

A product has to ship in 2023 to be actually eligible. Same as it ever was. Not to mention that WRT the A9 III, no one has been able to secure a production camera to do an independent review yet. Heck, Sony hasn't even posted one of their own sample videos from the A9 III on their website yet, so no one can even begin to evaluate the video quality.

As for the R1, it's so funny seeing people argue over gear that is not even announced and that no one has a clue as to the features.

@mick232
Keep telling yourself that about the number #1 camera maker in the world.
Remember when you were saying the same thing about Nikon and now the've won Product/Camera of the year in 2 years in a row almost unanimously.

Now, go back to your basement and pay $150 for your gridlines.

The product, for all intents and purposes, doesn't exist. Only review models for YouTubers exist. That's not the same. It will exist in 2024. No one can use it "today", or even on December 31st. So yes, it shouldn't be eligible to win this year.

Looking forward to the R1, Z9 is the most overrated camera ever. Unfortunately I'm forced to use it on a daily basis. R3 is so much nicer.

@Snoddas
"Z9 is the most overrated camera ever"

I trust NASA more than you. They're switching all their gear to Z system starting with a bunch of Z9's.

How is it overrated?

@Tweets_Core

NASA? The company that couldn't get back to the moon in over 50 years?

They're most likely switching to Zs because they've already used Nikon for decades. They have a metric ton of Nikon gear lying around, so it can be adapted to Z easily enough, without having to spend a metric ton on a completely new set of lenses.

@ZZT231
Seriously man. You compare yourself to NASA level! And at the same time you brag about AP deal. What a joke.

NASA, the company that made the Space shuttle and dealt with all the ups and downs of that for 25 years? The company that co-built the space station? The company put a telescope 1 million miles out from Earth beyond the moon? The company that crashed a space craft into an asteroid 11 million miles from Earth to deflect its path as a test to deflect extinction level asteroids in the future? The company that took samples of a moving asteroid 200 million miles from Earth and brought said samples back? You make it sound like getting back to the moon was their one and only priority over the last 50 years. By comparison, the moon has become pedestrian. They're switching to Z's because, well why mess with a good thing? It's a known entity with rock solid reliability.

@m_black: Because the D850 have better IQ... Nikon apparently sacrificed IQ for speed in the Z9. 45 MP is also pretty pointless for a sports camera, which is one reason that I prefer the R3. smaller form factor and less weight is another. Z9 is a brick.

@Tweets_Core: NASA couldn't afford the Sony A1 + new glass?

@ZZT231 NASA is not a company it is a government agency. As a government agency NASA's priorities depend on what Congress and the White House agree upon in the annual budget. Returning to the moon hasn't been a political priority for decades.

@ Joe H. Thanks for pointing out that NASA is a government (a government that can't do anything right according to some people) agency vs. a for-profit corporation.

The race to the moon was a political public relations battle between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. Practical scientific benefits were secondary to the U.S. being the first to plant its flag on the moon.

There are more important scientific gains that may be realized through other NASA programs than going to the moon or Mars. Arguably we would all benefit much more if the U.S government focused on addressing the climate change crisis vs. the currently impractical concept of establishing human colonies on the moon or other planets.

@snoddas... sacrificed image quality? Are you kidding? Quantify that. (I used to own a D850 and own a Z9. So I'd like to hear from your experience how image quality was sacrificed). 45 mp files in HE* RAW yields the same image size as 24mp. If you shoot JPEG, you can select, S (9), M (25) or L (45) resolutions. Also, most of NASA's images have been taken with cameras less than 24mp. Probably less than 20. Didn't seem to bother anyone then. And a brick? It's micro gravity up there. It literally doesn't weigh anything. On Earth, people are using the Z9 almost daily. The weight is a non-issue. Time to get over that and stop projecting what you feel is heavy onto other people.

I'm sure NASA will be ok, but the Z9 wouldn't be my first pick for deep space photography. See table below chart as well:
https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%20R3,Nikon%20D850,Nikon%20Z%209,Sony%20ILCE-7RM3

Hopefully Nikon will include "micro-gravity" with the updated Z9 II....for simple people who shoot on earth...

@m_black

Adding to your good points, the Z9's bigger size is actually a plus for astronauts in gloves. But this guy can't see past his own nose. Arguing with people like him is pointless.

He actually said, 'I'm sure NASA will be okay, but the Z9 wouldn't be my first pick for deep space photography.'

How do you even argue with that? He thinks he's got 'higher' standards than NASA's scientists. That's a whole new level of brand bias and low IQ. And I'm not talking about image quality here.

And he always immediately "likes" his own post. That's another insight of him.

I don't have time for charts and measuring the minutiae that no one pays attention to except here. No one has ever identified the photo by the camera taken. No one has ever identified the level of dynamic range in a published photo much less ruminated on how much better it 'could' have been with A, B or C brand. If you know your camera and are moderately good at post production, those 0.5% differences in DR are negated. NASA (and most people) look at other parameters than the absolute metrics of sensor characteristics.

@Tweets_core

"Remember last year when you whined about the Nikon Z9 winning the product/camera of the year..."

It's not a good idea to be so rude to people when you can't even remember what year it is. Last year was 2022 and the camera of the year (in the High-end class) was the the Sony A7V. Product of the year was the Fujifilm X-H2S.
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6867714788/our-favorite-gear-rewarded-dpreview-awards-2022?slide=15

The Z9 won in 2021 and won only in the category 'Product of the Year'. It was runner up in the High-end Camera category to the Sony A1.
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0906069009/our-favorite-gear-rewarded-dpreview-awards-2021?slide=14

@Snoddas
Well, can he get a milky-way shot with a ISO 100 film and 30 sec exposure?
Can he get a bird in flight using his film manual focus camera? Not every photography is landscape and even then you could use technology to make your shots better. Think Circular Polarizer.

There's a reason why Pro photographers always get the latest technology regardless of always claiming gear don't matter.

That's not what Capa said..I assume the OP is being tongue in cheek here.

The actual quote: "If your pictures aren't good enough, you're not close enough."

Imagine if Robert had a telephoto lens, he may have be able to stay out of harms way.

@Thoughts R Us: It's a travesty... @m_black: A telephoto lens won't help, ever wondered why close-up wide angle shots are so popular in photo journalism? @Tweets_Core
: You obviously didn't get the point, ask ChatGPT to explain it for you. Soon people won't be able to find their own buts without AI, even less take a photograph.

@Snoddas
You probably feel threatened by AI because your photography skill is not that good.

That does not sound like a Capa-ism. Do you have a source?
He is reliably quoted as having said "If your pictures aren't good enough, you aren't close enough". Then tragically, he stands on a nearby mine.

@A Owens: It's a -travesty- on the famous Capa-quote, I expected that to be obvious for everyone that know anything about photography.

@m-black Robert Capa stepped on a land mine. He got out of the jeep he was riding in so he could get ahead of the regimental column and make photos of it advancing. I have never heard of any lens that would have allowed Capa to remain where he was and get the shot he had envisioned.

@Snoddas From what I have read so far nobody thinks that your rephrasing of Capa's famous advice to photographers is clever or funny. . . If I were you I would stop while I was ahead.

Sony FE lenses work surprisingly well on Nikon Z cameras, apart from one critical area: lens corrections. Most lenses these days, and in particular zooms, require a hefty dose of distortion correction. In my experience, when adapting FE lenses on Z cameras, the correction is all over the place in Lightroom. Correcting distortion manually can be OK for primes, but not really workable for zooms.

Good catch noegd.

The 20-70 requires a good deal of corrections at 20mm too.

What? A Sony lens depends on lens corrections in camera to get good results? I thought that was frowned upon by some Sony promoters when other companies did that? Say it ain't so.

@TRU Shhhhhh...don't tell them the truth. RF16 and 14-35L got battered to death for using digital correction. It's not allowed for non-Sony company.

" What? A Sony lens depends on lens corrections in camera to get good results? I thought that was frowned upon by some Sony promoters when other companies did that? Say it ain't so. " -TRU

Not sure who that's aimed at tbh, I try not to generalize, but from what I've seen software corrections are generally not frowned upon on the Sony boards so maybe you've been listening to a select few commenters a bit too much. I think it *would* be viewed more negatively by some on a prime lens tho (a larger/fast one anyway, my Sony 24/2.8 G relies on corrections a lot too), but it's kind of expected on a small zoom that goes very wide.

Personally I care about the final output, and there's lots of way to get there, sometimes the amount of distortion that's corrected isn't even as relevant to that final output as the kind of distortion that's been corrected (barrel vs wavy, etc.).

@TRUS

I don‘t think so - they are both to heavy and to expensive and Canon has no camera for me.

@TRU
I don't understand the logic... Canon has been selling us that a classic robust 70-200mm f2.8 is way too heavy and large and that photographers must go with a fragile collapsible lens.

And then they come up with a monstruous 24-105mm f2.8.

I agree that larger lenses are often manageable, but that is not my point.

I am trying to understand the design philosophy underlying the RF line and struggle to find any.

Nikon has chosen to release the best possible optics at each focal length, Sony has decided that compactness was their priority... unclear for Canon.

@Snoddas
Hadderian haddera

@Snoddas you mean it would be close to mft 6,5k lens price tag ;-)
That's quite a difference. And just have a look at the recent "Wildlife Photographer of the Year" article, there's the 800 f/11 included. It isn't nowadays as limiting as it used to be.

@PredatorsPrey: I didn't suggest you should shoot MFT, the opposite rather.., but 600mm/f9 is not sexy, even on FF. I also struggle to get my head around Nikons latest 600mm/f6.3.
Sure it's light and sharp, but f6.3 for that price is ridiculous.

Completely useless lens for most wildlife use cases...

Did I just hear someone will not be able to shoot photos at f9? LOL

@Snoddas
I pointed to affordability in comparison. Not everyone can pay the price tag of a 800 f/5.6 or 600 f/4 + extender (or mft prices) or wants to in the beginning. Having that option is good, lowering the entry into long focal lengths. It's a bid dark yes and I'd liked 800 f/8 but for what it is it is good. It also could be a consideration next to a big prime for it's versatility. Some wildlife photographers have something like a 150-600 next to their 600 prime and this could replace it.
Despite it being so slow I'm also considering it. Not for this time of the year of course.

@Snoddas: have you seen photos from the Nikon 600 PF? It’s an incredible lens and there are no other lenses from other manufacturers like it. People regularly put 1.4 TCs on f/5.6 or f/6.3 super telephoto zooms and end up with f/8 or f/9 lenses. An f/6.3 aperture might limit you somewhat at the start and end of a day but it’s perfectly fine for most situations. This lens gives amateurs access to something that they didn’t have before at a price that’s far lower than a 600 f/4.

@PredatorsPrey: Check out Pangolin Wildlife's (p)review of the Canon 200-800 on YT if you haven't. I think they are pretty realistic about pros and cons. I'm far too picky even for my own good... :-)

Exactly, it does feel like they may have wanted to avoid Nikon winning in too many categories after having won 2 out of the 3 camera awards (which is probably unheard of as far as I recall).

The sigma 14mm is excellent but is a super niche lens compared to a 85mm f1.2, 135mm f1.8, 180-600mm or 600mm f6.3 S.

I agree with PL. That Sigma is a great lens but it's about as niche as they get in that it's praised for use in astrophotography. The 85 f1.2 and Plena 135 are far more mainstream in use cases. The super tele lenses are great for birding/wildlife/sports, which again is a larger market than astrophotography.

@photography-lover

"it does feel like they may have wanted to avoid Nikon winning in too many categories after having won 2 out of the 3 camera awards (which is probably unheard of as far as I recall)."

You recall is not so good PL :)

Sony won all three camera awards in 2021.
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0906069009/our-favorite-gear-rewarded-dpreview-awards-2021?slide=13

And Canon won best mid-range and high-end in 2020 with the R6 and R5.
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0591943162/our-favorite-gear-rewarded-dpreview-awards-2020?slide=18

Two or more wins has happened quite a few times if you want to check. I can assure you DPR gave as many awards to Nikon as they wanted to.

I disagree - price is definitely a factor in "best." You can be sure Nikon Z8 would not have won if it cost $8000 (say). At least, the judges consider price as an important factor, quote: "The Nikon Z8 takes the same concept and adds that you can do it at a more affordable price. At $4000, the Z8 isn't cheap, but it does pretty much everything the Z9 does for $1500 less..."

I stand corrected! Thank you for taking the time to prove me wrong. :-)

Ahh yes…. Can’t have any attention on Sony without equivalent attention on Nikon.

Thank you for your comment.. LOL.

yes, strange this amazing lens wasn't even mentioned. It should be a lens in 2023 in my view.

Very surprising, anyone having used the Plana knows it belongs to the top 5 of best lenses ever designed.

@Thoughts R Us

"It's a spectacular lens that everyone who uses it falls in love with."

You like to accuse YouTubers of repeating phrases from manufacturers' press releases, (without ever giving any examples) well that sentence sounds like pure PR. It sounds like a quote from a brochure.

@photography-lover

"anyone having used the Plana knows it belongs to the top 5 of best lenses ever designed."

In the 'top 5 best lenses ever designed' eh? High praise.

What are the other four lenses in your view?

RD: find me the Nikon marketing brochure or press release that uses that phrase that I used. Go on...I will wait...

TRU: "....sounds like pure PR. It sounds like a quote from a brochure."
There's a large difference between "sounds like" and "is"
He's 100 percent correct :)

@ZZT231
It's funny how SFB's logic shifts depending on whether the context involves S or other brands.

Not to worry - Canon forecasts that they will sell 2.9 million interchangeable lens cameras this year for a market share of (2.9/5.85) almost 50%. They also forecast that their camera-only revenue will be +8.2% this year compared to last year.

photography-lover: According to Nikon financial documents, Nikon forecasts that they will have a (800/6300) 13% interchangeable lens camera market share for their fiscal year. They also forecast a (1,250/10,000) 12.5% lens market share. See page 21 of their latest financial presentation materials.