What Sony's gridline update tells us about the future of cameras

TRU

Sony has for years done this on their cine line, they also did something similar at playmobile app and they also do paid upgrade on playstation, people are making it sound like this is a newly grown idea, it’s not, Sony have a very long history of paid upgrades, they just extended to now also involve their hybrid line and photography.

Are people in here really living so much under a rock! What is apps if not paid solutions either by money directly from your pocket or through selling private information about you!

Nothing is ever for free, free things dos not exist. If you get something it’s because you paid for it in one way or another, that is the reality of capitalism.

The payed upgrade is come to stay, don’t like it isn’t going to make it go away, because this is increasingly what will make companies interested in even offering products to you. This is just the first step eventually you have to pay for far more then just this!

This is just slowly getting you used to the idea, but no amount of sour old men complaining is going to make Sony change their approach.

Sony know how to make money, unlike Canon and Nikon they know how to make a niche profitable enough to be worth making.

Don’t like it don’t support capitalism and politicians supporting the system… because this is in truth what this is.

Nice guys don’t earn money in this world, as the world is built entirely on exploitation

Malling: that's quite a cynical take.

I agree that there's no such thing as a free lunch. But Apps generally sell for a few dollars or are given away for free in exchange for advertising. I don't know of many apps that sell for $150; much less ones that only add gridlines.

Many companies do give software updates for free, considering the hardware has been paid for, as a way of encouraging customers to continue to do business with them.

And as I noted, does a few hundred thousand in extra revenue really matter that much to a company the size of Sony, when this has generated such bad PR for them? I'd say they've lost more in PR than they will ever gain by charging for this SW update.

Sony does know how to make money, but they are not perfect and have exited businesses before. Also Canon and Nikon, last time I checked, also know how to make money.

BTW, Malling, I will bookmark this conversation so that when the next Canon/Nikon release comes along, and you or other Sony promoters complain about pricing, I will quote you.

Malling: First of all, it was a bad business decision by Sony, because they are getting roasted for it by their general customer base which isn't even the target market for it. Sony knows that perception equates to reality in marketing and surely they have lost more goodwill than they will ever gain by selling this software update.

Second, Canon and Nikon actually are doing quite well if you read their last few quarterly reports. And you can't compare them with Sony overall because Sony is such a larger company with revenue from many other sources such as video games, movies, semiconductors/sensors insurance, etc. In fact the camera business for Sony is a very small part of their business and doesn't move the needle in terms of their stock price. I don't know how you, as a good capitalist, can make these mistakes in your analysis.

TRU your like most looking at reactions on the tiniest of fractions of the customer base. People in here make a storm out of nothing, we are in truth a fraction of a fraction of a fraction… Most of Sony users either simply would not care or won’t even hear about it, so the consequences are about nill, your given us way to much importance this is a storm in a coffee cup in a complete unimportant segment, we mean absolutely nothing to them financially, they care about the reaction from the masses not some sour old men on the net.

This feature was requested and Sony told it would be a paid solution, normally companies do not make FW on request, but Sony do if you pay fir it. This is first and foremost what this is, someone made a request Sony provided it but wouldn’t let all users pay for it.

Also sony introduced such before, been through this before they know full well how people react, this ain’t no surprise and they know people will come to terms with it.

Nikon and Canon didn't deliver horrible results for years...and obviously they are still around and going strong.

Sony earned loads of money from Playstation, some hit movies, sales of image sensors to Apple, etc...but their camera business is a small blip to them.

A small blip to them…. However they completely changed the industry.

With professional mirrorless cameras, stacked sensors, and in a few years, global shutters in mainstream cameras…

In what financial term are Canon and Nikon going strong? Also I wasn’t referring to the whole company but their imagine divisions that was blood red for years.

They have first recently managed to get a few decent performing finically quarters, that hardly qualifies as going strong.

Canon is sitting on nearly half of all shipments but have very underwhelming revenue and even worse profits! Investors would hardly clap their hands over this when a competitor with far less market share beat them. And yes investors definitely look at that…

Investors care about revenue and profits not artificially pumped number sales that does not generate anything on the contrary that is seen as a minus.

I wouldn’t say Nikons stock was almost worthless 2 years ago. Yeah end of 2020 their stock was down but they had literally billions of cash in the bank…. It’s true their market cap was below their cash value (which basically means the market wasn’t valuing their business). But they were hardly worthless…

Has Sony never updated their autofocus (or other arguably important aspect of the camera) via firmware update? I doubt they haven't, and if for some reason that IS the case - well - it's just a matter of time until you'll have egg on your face, I'm sure.

I don't understand the defensiveness here.

Are you guys happy about the way Sony has been adding features to the a1 since its release?

Anecdotal observation here. I feel like the last time Sony really fluffed-up a camera via f/w was with the OG a9. I think they got up to like v6.X. Gave it all sorts of stuff like realtime autofocus. It was imo the glory days of Sony showing everyone else up with fancy FF stacked sensors etc.

Now: meh. I know that’s just opinion and someone could chime-in and point out other Sony goodies. Not saying Sony sucks. I’m just saying that the days of generosity via f/w advancement feel like they’re done. Now it’s: buy the next camera.

All computer products these days get software updates. It's not a sign that the product is "half finished." Quite the contrary, it's realizing that in computer products there is always room for improvement.

Does anyone seriously think that in any computer product when it's released that its full potential is realized?

The lack of software updates doesn't mean the product is "finished" or "complete." In fact it means that the product potential is not pushed forward or fully exploited. We see that in Sony cameras where the processor is the same but some cameras get some features that others do not.

If anything it's products that do not get software updates that remain "half finished."

By Reilly's reasoning, when the Sony A1 gets a long awaited software update sometime in Spring of 2024 that will mean the A1 was "half finished" when released.

I agree with IdM here...while I am not afraid to criticize Sony, their G Master lenses are fantastic and top quality. And all companies charge top dollar for that level of quality.

Many may find it unnecessary, but you often pay dearly on the margin for that last mile of performance.

There is no better lens line up currently on the market. Optically best and at the same time fastest, smallest and lightest. It can't be better and they are expensive. But with Sony you can always make your own choices with 3rd party optics and with Sony cheaper lens line up like FE or G. In Canon for example you don't have choice at all. You are forced to buy and use their own super-bulky and super-expensive lenses. 3rd party is not allowed - and that is greedy.

So from my point of view there is big plus for Sony and I am happy that I've made my switch to Sony camp almost 3 years ago.

Oh boy, (it's always a boy) we've got a live one here!

@focuspulling - except the market and Sonys position within it indicate they are not being schooled at all. In fact it appears the competition in the free market are often playing catch up..

Not sure creating products and features in exchange for money greed, we do live in a free market and those can freely choose to not take up this update. However it certainly isn’t free for Sony to pay people to create it…

You could of course make your own camera….

Not sure about suckers but maybe you need to stop pulling your focus…

A counterpoint: there is plenty of innovation going on. As someone else noted, take Sony: sure they deserve criticism for charging for this simple software update. But they also just released the first FF global shutter camera in the A9 III.

There's plenty of innovation going on: you just to look around and see it. There are huge breakthroughs in AI almost every day, the space program is amazing, we have electric vehicles, etc. A lot of innovation occurs at the smallest levels, like with microprocessor design now going down to 3 nm.

As for greed: well, that's more of a human problem, not just corporations. Humans often have problems controlling their appetites. Corporations are after all run by people, so there is not a problem in a corporation that is not really a human problem.

Can you imagine, if they added such a feature in some free update? If I were a firmware engineer at Nikon, I would do this on my free time, this just for a laugh. Managers should approve ;)

Sony has the worst build quality.

skyisland that's a continuous cost. this is a one time payment. Very different things.

Now, do I want to buy a cheaper camera and pay extra if I want focus stacking and bug tracking af that I've never used and don't plan on using? Yes...

When you buy a computer you pay for the software you want to use. And you don't pay for the software you don't want to use...

pantunes, it's not even worth $1 per month. So even if it was offered at $1 per month you'd be over 10 years to meet it to $150. It's worth nothing, literally nothing. Say no to it with enough ppl then it will be free.

They don't make the camera cheaper for you without the gridlines. That's the real fallacy. "I want features separate so the camera will be cheaper." Utter nonsense.

Enough ppl to say no, then the heated seats come on for free as the car is already paid for. Same with camera. The black lines can be written in a day into the software by trained monkeys. Doesn't cost Sony a dime.

When you buy a computer it does come with a lot of basic software that you get no matter what. And there is quite a lot of free software to download if you want it as well.

And the fact that this is such an easy piece of software to implement makes this a slap in the face to Sony users, to charge as much as $150 for it. And skyisland is correct: you do not pay less for any Sony camera because this software is not included.

Sony should have just announced this update for free to those who want it. Now they are universally getting criticized for it.

A lot of apps come with ‘in app purchases’ that can considerably increase the cost above the initial purchase: and often you’re asked to pay for functions you expected to be usable already.
I don’t buy those unless I have a clear idea of what I’m going to get.

Reilly Diefenbach is right: if you don’t have an overwhelming need for this add-on, don’t buy it, don’t moan about it.

And, TRU: if it wasn’t being made such a meal of here (there’s not much going on in the camera world until February or March next year, so DPR and the other photography sites that grabbed at this are just filling space) the great majority of Sony users would have (probably are doing anyway) just shrugged their shoulders and forgotten it.

It’s hardly going to precipitate a mass migration of Sony owners or new customers. Remember the ‘Playmemories’ apps? I downloaded a few of the free ones, paid for one, balked at another ‘cos I thought it too expensive. I didn’t get all huffy and decided I’d go Nikon/Canon.

No, this is not a feature hidden somewhere in the camera software when you buy the camera. It’s making uploading a png file to the camera firmware possible. That’s not part of the original firmware, it’s an add-on.

Are you seriously saying a simple FW update with minimal money spent to get it created should be charged $150? I don't think it's greed either like a lot are saying. It's about control. They want everything to be a subscription service to suck the life out of ppl and keep upping the prices to drain the "peasants": flickr, Adobe Lightroom, etc. Next up cameras, phones, computers are coming soon with their subscriptions.

In 2030 "You will own nothing and be happy." when they openly say it, you should believe it.

Where’s the fallacy part? This is clearly a trial balloon for future paid software upgrades.

squarewave: I'm just surprised how brazen they are to say $150 for gridlines! Maybe it is a trial balloon like you said just to see how calm and obedient the peasants are when they say $150 for FW upgrade gridlines.

I swear this sounds like a literal April Fools joke on a photography website.

skyisland, do you think adding a couple of features to Capture One is worth $300 for the new version?

How do you price something like this?

Is $150 too much when it will save hours and hours of post production?

You're comparing a massive photography program to literal gridlines on a camera screen? Something that already should have been in mirrorless cameras many years ago. They have all kinds of useless nonsense I remove from their EVFs in the settings so it's easy to put c-rap on there but gridlines or aspect ratios? Nope lol

Have you ever used Lightroom back in the day where you bought the program? They had to make improvements to get ppl to buy the new version. I don't use C1 but at least respect you can purchase the program outright.

We still are talking about gridlines, lets don't forget that point. Literal lines on a screen..just lines, straight lines, nothing else. Not moving dragons or something on the screen. It's just static lines. Black, straight, static lines..

Let's not forget that the A7R IV is a camera that still uses the antiquated way of updating where you have to connect your camera to a computer and download a special bit of Sony updater software to your computer. It's a pain.

I believe it was with the A7 IV that Sony went to the more modern way that others use where you just upload the file to a memory card and then put that in the camera.

So on top of everything this software update is not even easy to install.

Thoughts R Us plugging a camera to a computer isn't easy? wow... you must be really bad with technology.

TRS has punched the clock and is now open for business.

Updating a Sony camera is a bit more than just plugging the camera into the back of a computer. Here is the Sony system for updating the A7R IV: you have to first download and install a special software updater on your computer. In many systems you have to change the security settings to do so. If you have a Mac running Apple Silicon, which many creatives use, you actually have to go into recovery mode and change the security policy on your Mac, and then change it back after the software install. So yes, it's a pain.

Considering that every other camera company for years has offered the option to simply download the file to a memory card and then place into the camera for SW upgrades, the Sony way is antiquated. Some even allow for software updates via their smartphone app.

Now Sony did apparently know this was a problem for many customers and so did go to allowing memory card updating with the A7 IV.

But the A7R IV still has the inferior software updating system.

I agree that the subscription model is kind of awful and cynical. But if single purchase firmware updates mean I can get more features I don't see the issue.

What dollar value do you assign to an hour of your time? (I’m not asking for an answer — rather suggesting it as a starting point for cost/benefit analysis of business tools.)